tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post3479935743873713622..comments2023-10-17T05:41:41.681-04:00Comments on Katharine A. Cartwright Studio: Mile Three ...Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-31504998883432239652009-12-04T14:41:26.501-05:002009-12-04T14:41:26.501-05:00Hi Mark,
In the USA, watercolorists produce the sa...Hi Mark,<br />In the USA, watercolorists produce the same range of subject matter and styles as the oil painters. The problem is, we can't get the same price for these paintings as for oils. There's a stigma attached to w/c painting as a less serious venture.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-20781987024521184352009-12-04T12:50:36.238-05:002009-12-04T12:50:36.238-05:00After Guernica? Hmm. I noticed at my last art exhi...After Guernica? Hmm. I noticed at my last art exhibition that there were almost no historical paintings, whether ancient subjects or recent social commentary. They're more out of fashion than oil paintings of copper pots (which seem eternally popular).<br /><br />I'm not sure that watercolours rank lowest in stature. The artists I speak to all admire the skill of watercolourists. The problem is that too many hobbyists use watercolours to paint flowers and twee landscapes. Perhaps it's not the medium as much as the subjects associated with it.Mark Sheekyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00710485457283053795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-44291617485172720112009-12-04T07:55:32.047-05:002009-12-04T07:55:32.047-05:00Sheila, I agree. This is a good observation. Don, ...Sheila, I agree. This is a good observation. Don, I'm trying to think of a painting since "Guernica" and there may be several, but I just can't think of them. Anyone else??Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-54460572219542689392009-12-04T07:54:23.579-05:002009-12-04T07:54:23.579-05:00Peggy - great thoughts! I think we are becoming th...Peggy - great thoughts! I think we are becoming the cyber version of "The Artists' Club" in New York City around the 1940's, as it was known. Abstract expressionists like Pollock, Rothko, Hofman, deKooning, etc. met at the Waldorf Cafeteria in Greenwich Village and later at other places. Thanks for mentioning this! And, I also like the idea of a "spiral" of art theory and influence. Great!!<br />Yes, sadly, I think graphite pencil ranks below w/c. Oh, dear!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-41067435535681744902009-12-04T07:48:41.362-05:002009-12-04T07:48:41.362-05:00Egmont - I agree! I abhor exclusivity and feel tha...Egmont - I agree! I abhor exclusivity and feel that the problem can be assigned to a variety of sectors. Certainly, the secretive usiness arrangements that occur between gallery dealers and museum curators are another problem. And, as you say, "credentials" is another unfair barrier. We need to change all that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-73126553749384481232009-12-04T02:19:34.829-05:002009-12-04T02:19:34.829-05:00Good point, Sheila!
The last historical scene pai...Good point, Sheila!<br /><br />The last historical scene painting that I can think of that made an impact was Picasso's "Guernica". Can anyone think of a more current one?<br /><br />-Don-Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17549962962379079880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-9546995251518236222009-12-03T23:50:04.006-05:002009-12-03T23:50:04.006-05:00Looks like I have to hand my marshmallow on a stic...Looks like I have to hand my marshmallow on a stick to Egmont because he's closer to the fire.<br /><br />In answering your question about the hierarchy still standing today, I think genre (everyday) life has or should be bumped up a few notches because the first two (history and portraiture) has been adequately supplemented by photography and film.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05599714103955686190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-86371770217353451492009-12-03T22:49:10.988-05:002009-12-03T22:49:10.988-05:00Hi Kathy and all around the fire! What a wonderfu...Hi Kathy and all around the fire! What a wonderful picture! Very creative!<br /><br />The fireside discussions of the past few days, and on this blog in general, remind me of the descriptions of the Friday night discussions I’ve read about in NYC during the 40s and 50s. Lead by some of the greats of the day, art students and masters used to discuss art philosophies well into the night, or so I’ve been told. I, unfortunately, don’t remember which book I read it in. I can only imagine there was plenty of wine available. <br /><br />It also reminds me of something I read from Robert Henri I believe...something about being in the company of all the artists who’ve gone before. I like trying to touch their ideas.<br /><br />I sort of think of things as cyclic, or spiraling. Cyclic because we rebel against the over-stifling academies. Eventually the new ideas of the rebels become the established. And, the cycle or spiral continues when someone else comes along to rebel. I like spiraling better than cyclic because I don’t think we ever arrive at exactly the same spot we were before. Each time we grow a bit, synthesize, and see things in new context.<br /><br />I struggle with conformity and non conformity all the time. I feel I should conform and learn to draw in the traditional manner...like it’s a rite of passage as an artist. This last for a few days until the urge to rebel is overwhelming. But, each notch on the spiral...like Kathy’s spiral helix, helps me grow and learn.<br /><br />I like reading about how the greats thought and within the context of their time. It helps me understand our current philosophies as well as appreciate the art of previous times. I grew up loving the art of Cubism, El Greco, Cezanne and Van Gogh and the drawings of Leonardo. I’ve had to learn how to see and enjoy some of the other masters like Carravagio, Vermeer, Raphael. I passed Velasquez at the Prado to get to Goya...both are great but now I get Velasquez.<br /><br />Speaking of hierarchy, pencil, whether graphite or colored pencil, is below watercolor. It’s sad that hierarchies must exist. No doubt the passion and love for art exists regardless of medium or subject. <br /><br />Camp fires brings out the urge to discuss ideas! Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-80461675751170730492009-12-03T22:04:37.527-05:002009-12-03T22:04:37.527-05:00I do not know if this sits into the discussion, bu...I do not know if this sits into the discussion, but when I think of contemporary academics, I cannot help see the 'white ivory towers' from which their views are forced upon us and that of the collector.<br /><br />Take for example the American publication 'New American Paintings', a publication in which the art is juried. <br /><br />Yet what I find within the majority of the pages, it contains their views what they think is the next style of art collectors should be purchasing and we should be painting.<br /><br />I once had high regards for this publication but no longer!<br /><br />Singling out 'New American Paintings' is not faIr, for there are always two sides to everything. We artist are also to blame for the state of things today.<br /><br />From the MIddle Ages until the Impressionists, artist worked for the church and wealthy patrons. When the Impressionists surfaced, they rebelled against the establish and the Salon and the Royal Academy that only permitted to feature art that was in line with their standards and political views.<br /><br />Since then artists have been free agents which is all well and good, so where am I heading?<br /><br />Media and money have created a few superstars at the cost of the majority of other artists. In today's art market we have a warped perspective and galleries wanting to take back some of the control by requiring artists have an academic education, regardless of the work.<br /><br />So where does it leave a considerable majority of artists who did not graduate with an masters in art yet their work is comparable to that of the graduate?<br /><br />I know this is all an over simplification and both sides have valid points in their arguments. I just feel there needs to be more of a balance and that art in general should be more inclusive and not exclusive.<br /><br />Warmest regards to all<br />EgmontThe Artist Within Ushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08081658641380811738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-23021949875915317662009-12-03T20:41:20.142-05:002009-12-03T20:41:20.142-05:00I'm trying to remember whether I was weird fir...I'm trying to remember whether I was weird first, then arty or vice versa. It's that chicken or egg question again. I was caught off guard a few years ago when a friend from high school asked if my kids were normal (and I thought I was passing for "normal" until I was in my forties). I blame it on being the middle child, the only daughter, a redhead, and a preacher's kid with a lot of questions--and I hung out with the smart kids in school.<br /><br />I have to study and think about these these last two posts--too many marshmallows.hw (hallie) farberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11636182620056350811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-90993928979722063072009-12-03T19:08:22.874-05:002009-12-03T19:08:22.874-05:00Hi PAMO and Carolyn, thanks so much and glad you&#...Hi PAMO and Carolyn, thanks so much and glad you're with us around the fire! And ... yes I DO love those Italians! I did my field research in Italy for five years, and the one summer I couldn't get back there I made up for it by marrying an Italian! Ciao.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-7184419511182855452009-12-03T18:56:49.556-05:002009-12-03T18:56:49.556-05:00I love this little campfire! Having spent many yea...I love this little campfire! Having spent many years in front of the campfire i can tell you the conversations have never been so interesting! I thoroughly enjoy all your comments and learn each day from them. Having never had a formal art education i have had many people tell me i am lucky to not have had the "formulazation" (is that a word?) of my art, but i have felt that in teaching myself and learning from books and workshops that i have missed something. That there was a hole in my education that i could not fill until now, learning with Kathy and now all of you in this way is awesome!! I'm going to refill my wine glass, throw another log on the fire and re-read all your comments! Chaoi! You've got to love those Italians!Carolyn Abramshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04183214944743911973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-77056515719267320582009-12-03T18:48:48.973-05:002009-12-03T18:48:48.973-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-11839046069212729962009-12-03T18:46:04.690-05:002009-12-03T18:46:04.690-05:00Don ... I understand. I suspect that non-objective...Don ... I understand. I suspect that non-objective work wouldn't have even been considered. It didn't match the philosophical ideas of the time. Although your work is clearly superior, Don, I doubt that either of us would have been taken seriously at that time. Heck ... it's hard enough being taken seriously even now!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-26127853398804684322009-12-03T18:42:22.589-05:002009-12-03T18:42:22.589-05:00Hi there, happy campers! Again, another great conv...Hi there, happy campers! Again, another great conversation around the campfire.<br /><br />Margaret - well, what is weird?? I guess if I have to ask that then I AM weird. I think there's this popular misconception that artists are out of their minds and act like lunatics most of the time. Not so at all - that's just affected behavior. Artists are creative. You don't have to walk around with a lampshade on your head to be creative :) And...I agree with the hierarchy you list. It's been my experience, too.<br /><br />Egmont - I'm sooo delighted that this picture cheered you up! We ARE a circle of cyber-friends and it's great that we can both engage in intellectual discussions and provide encouragement. Safe travels.<br /><br />Don - yes ... you make a good point about the rebellion against the academies. I'll be getting to that verrrrry soon. Your story about the acrylic painting is, sadly, a true reflection of the medium hierarchy. I think Margaret's correct in placing watercolor below acrylic on the bottom rung. I've caved in a little bit to this bias. Although I still paint in w/c, the show I'm preparing for June is in oils for the very reason you stated. I'll defer to Mark's statement about abstracts. I agree with him.<br /><br />Mark - I'll put down my marshmallow long enough to reply :) Scruton's philosophy about beauty and art is a small twist on the ancient philosophy. Just shows how long an idea can hang around! Good observation about the commonality between the hierarchical tiers. I must think about that for awhile, since there's a primal psychological response to all art forms by humans, anyway, so wouldn't we select to create that which we can relate to? I think the hierarchy as it's presented was based on Greek philosophy ... contrived notions of thoughts that elevate the human condition. But, I'm no expert and I'll keep thinking about this. Oh no!... smoke is coming out of my ears!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11037549177881696434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-88069637447857702552009-12-03T18:37:33.857-05:002009-12-03T18:37:33.857-05:00Good point, Mark... Make that non-objective instea...Good point, Mark... Make that non-objective instead of abstract. Every one of the genre's listed above has some cognizant form of subject matter based on "the real world". The Academie was exclusive in its willingness to allow anything into their shows that did not fall under their definitions of the aforementioned genre's. So, with that historical context in mind, into what genre would they have placed Kathy's work? Or, mine? And - here's another doozy - would we even have been perceived as artists?<br />-Don-Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17549962962379079880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-44861587959156898632009-12-03T18:13:26.751-05:002009-12-03T18:13:26.751-05:00Another riviting discussion. Thanks for taking the...Another riviting discussion. Thanks for taking the time to post. I've just finished watching an excellent BBC documentary by philosopher Roger Scruton about beauty in art (PS. I accidentally lied in an earlier post, I think my latest book was Modern Philosophy by him). Anyway to cut a long story short he argued the the purpose of art was to elevate humanity to a higher moral and spiritual plane through beauty; to transcend the normal and reinforce good feelings during good times and console and give understanding during bad times.<br /><br />This reminded me of your art hieracrhies. What do they have in common? I suggest, the power to represent situations that ordinary people can identify with. "History" paintings always reflected the situations of ordinary people and can do so more powerfully than portraiture... etc.<br /><br />Don... abstract is a technique not a genre of art... all paintings are abstracted to some degree. Howabout that for thought provocation! Have a virtual toasted marshmallow folks :)Mark Sheekyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00710485457283053795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-18232776618125488912009-12-03T15:53:20.311-05:002009-12-03T15:53:20.311-05:00First, I'm going to elbow in a little closer t...First, I'm going to elbow in a little closer to the fire...brrr.... there, that's better...<br /><br />I'm glad the acadamies had so much to do with the garnering of influence and respect for artists. But, as is so often the case, what started out as useful organizations soon enough turned into a huge, powerful, self-serving beasts. I realized several years ago that all of my favorite art movements were reactions against these academies (and more recently, any other established "way of doing things") - a couple obvious examples being the Realists and the Impressionists. Oops, I think I may have just jumped ahead...sorry...<br /><br />Margaret brings up a good point in your question about hierarchy, there does seem to be a hierarchy - or prejudice - associated with the media used to create paintings. Oils sit way up high on the list and then everything else falls into place below it. As you know, my media of choice is acrylic. Not long ago I had someone fall in love with one of my paintings. They kept coming back to check it out. They finally decided that they would not buy it because they were disappointed that it was not in oil. I did not allow my dismay to show on my face or in my voice, but my inner voice was saying things that should not be repeated!<br /><br />As for genre's, I notice that abstract - something not even listed by the Acadamie - would be high on today's list. I wonder where your and my work would even fall in the Acadamie's list???<br /><br />-Don-Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17549962962379079880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-56778583778674247182009-12-03T15:22:56.917-05:002009-12-03T15:22:56.917-05:00Being on the road and only with very limited Inter...Being on the road and only with very limited Internet access, I shall only comment on the picture of us all around the fire.<br /><br />Since my trip has been a mental strain these last few days, this post could not have come at a better time. I needed a good light hearted humour to bring about some much needed distraction. So please know that it worked, there is a big, no make that huge smile across my face followed by a roar of laughter.<br /><br />As mentioned, I need to return and read the post before commenting on anything else, but in regards to Leonardo, there are two notebooks of his published by Dover and still available. They are worth reading.<br /><br />Warmest regards<br />EgmontThe Artist Within Ushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08081658641380811738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1324184304367023797.post-58976812808526311762009-12-03T14:08:01.467-05:002009-12-03T14:08:01.467-05:00How cosy we all look around the fire. It's alw...How cosy we all look around the fire. It's always great to feel part of a group. I'm gaining so much from your writing on this blog that I'm beginning to feel like I should send you a workshop fee! Thanks for taking the time to share your journey with us. <br /><br />I had no idea we have Leonardo to thank for elevating the status of painting to a philosophical activity that could explore or expose truth. I would like to think artists are held in high regard in society today, but this is not always the case. Many people have an odd perception of artists and this stereotype is pervasive. For example I lead a fairly conventional, middle class life, and I do not fit the stereotype of artist. I was told , " You can't be an artist, You're not weird enough." I'm curious to hear what other people have to say about that the status of artists in society. <br /> <br />Yea Humanists! Thank you, but I'm glad I don't have to deal with the Academies. I realize they had an important role to play in the development of more standardized learning opportunities but this is negated somewhat by the need for artists to conform to what was considered correct at the time. As for the hierarchy of painting - very interesting. I seem to remember reading about this in the last month or so and felt for some people that a hierarchy of subject matter still holds true today. I don't think it is the same as the one listed here, but there are value judgments made about subject matter, e.g. floral subject matter, and media used, e.g., watercolour are both near the bottom of the barrel. <br /> I'm looking forward to reading other responses to this question.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12726740154167156916noreply@blogger.com